[5NL] QJs on button, flop decision.

Villain was 30/15/0 through 33 hands. He had already called 2/2 button raises on his BB so it's possible he didn't like giving it up. Had folded to 66% cbets, 2/3.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $12.65
MP: $5.85
CO: $8.71
Hero (BTN): $6.32
SB: $6.38
BB: $10.74

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players) 8 J 7
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.54, Hero ???

My first thought was that villain was maybe playing back me. If he isn't I put him on 77+, AsKs, AJs, KJs, QJs, JTs, J8s-J7s, T9s, 87s, 65s, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo, J8o-J7o, T9o, 87o, 65o.

I am unsure whether he 3bets big hands pre as I only have a small sample size so I have included JJ+ & AKs.

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Pokerstove gives me

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

116,820 games 0.005 secs 23,364,000 games/sec

Board: 7s 8s Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.847% 54.83% 02.02% 64052 2356.50 { QsJs }
Hand 1: 43.153% 41.14% 02.02% 48055 2356.50 { 77+, AsKs, AJs, KJs, QJs, JTs, J8s-J7s, T9s, 87s, 65s, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo, J8o-J7o, T9o, 87o, 65o }

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Should I be 3betting this flop, happy to get my stack in, or do I call to see a turn card?

If you reraise the flop I think he'll fold out most of his semi bluffs which does horrible things to your equity.

A check raise is usually a pretty strong play too so I wouldn't be surprised if he had your range crushed. The only card you're really going to feel safe with on the turn and river is a Q. And a J as it makes the kicker point below less likely.

Any spades may help, but Axs/Kxs hands are well within his range so if you get it in you're behind a lot of the time.

If any higher cards come out you can be fairly worried too, unless you feel you can get him to fold.

If any lower cards come out you're always going to be worried that he has a better kicker than you.

Btw, won't be playing 5nl anytime soon, running a solid $24 under EV today along with a couple of coolers when I had a shot at 5nl today means that I now have a solid $60 left from my $100.

Originally Posted by ImSavy

If you reraise the flop I think he'll fold out most of his semi bluffs which does horrible things to your equity.

A check raise is usually a pretty strong play too so I wouldn't be surprised if he had your range crushed. The only card you're really going to feel safe with on the turn and river is a Q. And a J as it makes the kicker point below less likely.

Any spades may help, but Axs/Kxs hands are well within his range so if you get it in you're behind a lot of the time.

If any higher cards come out you can be fairly worried too, unless you feel you can get him to fold.

If any lower cards come out you're always going to be worried that he has a better kicker than you.

Btw, won't be playing 5nl anytime soon, running a solid $24 under EV today along with a bit a couple of coolers when I had a shot at 5nl today means that I now have a solid $60 left from my $100.

Are you saying you fold here then?

Exactly the same thing happened to me when I moved up to 5NL, the amount of coolers I had was ridiculous. Both times it happened as well.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Are you saying you fold here then?

Exactly the same thing happened to me when I moved up to 5NL, the amount of coolers I had was ridiculous. Both times it happened as well.

Nah, I call.

Always feel bad about it though and probably spew on later streets.

3-betting is fine. No reason to give him a free card when you're ahead of his continuing range.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

3-betting is fine. No reason to give him a free card when you're ahead of his continuing range.

If we 3bet, say $1.70, are we happy to get our stack in if he 4bet shoves or do we now fold?

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

If we 3bet, say $1.70, are we happy to get our stack in if he 4bet shoves or do we now fold?

If he shoves it's just a case of using this formula again;

(Amount hero has to call)/(total pot) to be won by hero or villain after you call.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

If we 3bet, say $1.70, are we happy to get our stack in if he 4bet shoves or do we now fold?

This is absolutely insane.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

This is absolutely insane.

You're so fucking helpful man, I love you.

Of the range you give villain when he raises the flop (I'm not sure J7-J8o would be in his range preflop, but otherwise, it sounds pretty reasonable to me), what do you think he would fold to a 3bet? Stuff like 99-TT, QJ, non-spade 65? So against his continuing range you'd be at something like this?

Board: 8s 7s Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.336% 46.01% 00.33% 32794 234.50 { QsJs }
Hand 1: 53.664% 53.33% 00.33% 38017 234.50 { JJ+, 88-77, AsKs, AJs, KJs, JTs, J8s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 6s5s, AJo, KJo, T9o, 87o }

With fold equity and the chance villain could be spazzing, this seems like it could be a profitable semi-bluff, right? (I actually kind of suck at 3betting, so I am running through this thought process for my own good too.)

Originally Posted by Malbrack

Of the range you give villain when he raises the flop (I'm not sure J7-J8o would be in his range preflop, but otherwise, it sounds pretty reasonable to me), what do you think he would fold to a 3bet? Stuff like 99-TT, QJ, non-spade 65? So against his continuing range you'd be at something like this?

Board: 8s 7s Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.336% 46.01% 00.33% 32794 234.50 { QsJs }
Hand 1: 53.664% 53.33% 00.33% 38017 234.50 { JJ+, 88-77, AsKs, AJs, KJs, JTs, J8s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 6s5s, AJo, KJo, T9o, 87o }

With fold equity and the chance villain could be spazzing, this seems like it could be a profitable semi-bluff, right? (I actually kind of suck at 3betting, so I am running through this thought process for my own good too.)

That makes a lot of sense. 3betting looks like the best option, great post.

Sorry, semi-bluff was the wrong word in my last post (for some reason I thought hero had two overcards, not top pair) since hero is probably not getting better to fold (would villain fold KJ?). But if we put 99-TT back in villain's range (which isn't too unreasonable since it would be pair+gutshot), hero has 51.7% equity to villain's continuing range.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

You're so fucking helpful man, I love you.

Maybe if you took 30seconds to plug your hand into pokerstove v just about any realistic range you'll see that 3b/folding is retarded and you won't have to post retarded questions no one wants to waste their time answering.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

you won't have to post retarded questions no one wants to waste their time answering.

This is what the beginners circle is all about.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Maybe if you took 30seconds to plug your hand into pokerstove v just about any realistic range you'll see that 3b/folding is retarded and you won't have to post retarded questions no one wants to waste their time answering.

Pretty sure this is unnecessary, especially in the BC. No one is forcing you to even read this.

@ImSavy - please post a range, or even a hand that we are "absolutely crushed by". With TP+FD+Overcard (and even a backdoor straight draw) we are 30% against even JJ.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pretty sure this is unnecessary, especially in the BC. No one is forcing you to even read this.

@ImSavy - please post a range, or even a hand that we are "absolutely crushed by". With TP+FD+Overcard (and even a backdoor straight draw) we are 30% against even JJ.

Bad terminology on my part, just meant beat.

Something along the lines of QQ, JJ, 88, 77, ATs+, 9T which is still only 62%.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pretty sure this is unnecessary, especially in the BC. No one is forcing you to even read this.

@ImSavy - please post a range, or even a hand that we are "absolutely crushed by". With TP+FD+Overcard (and even a backdoor straight draw) we are 30% against even JJ.

Pretty sure he could have interpreted my previous answer as a "no" and if he wanted to know exactly why I would have told him but since he answered with a very sarcastic "man, I fucking love you" Why would I help an ungrateful twat?

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Pretty sure he could have interpreted my previous answer as a "no" and if he wanted to know exactly why I would have told him but since he answered with a very sarcastic "man, I fucking love you" Why would I help an ungrateful twat?

I hope you're not sore after that whole SC's/S1G's OOP discussion we had.

Your answer was not very helpful, therefore I replied in a sarcastic manner which you obviously took to heart. It was only supposed to be light hearted, didn't mean for you to take it the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I hope you're not sore after that whole SC's/S1G's OOP discussion we had.

Your answer was not very helpful, therefore I replied in a sarcastic manner which you obviously took to heart. It was only supposed to be light hearted, didn't mean for you to take it the wrong way.

? Why would I be sore after the sc's s1g's argument when you couldn't even make 1 valid point throughout the entire thread. My answer basically said no. That is as helpful as you deserved since you didn't stove anything yourself. You can't expect people to hold your hand and do every pokerstove calc for you. I know your math is a little weaker which is fine and most people will be willing to help you with those calc's but there is no reason for you to not at least post your own pokerstove ranges.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

? Why would I be sore after the sc's s1g's argument when you couldn't even make 1 valid point throughout the entire thread. My answer basically said no. That is as helpful as you deserved since you didn't stove anything yourself. You can't expect people to hold your hand and do every pokerstove calc for you. I know your math is a little weaker which is fine and most people will be willing to help you with those calc's but there is no reason for you to not at least post your own pokerstove ranges.

I have given a poker stove range in my OP.

So this is some bizarre forum vendetta? wtf?

I just want to point out that Icanhastreebet (aka yaawn) is an excellent player (significantly better than myself) and is very passionate about poker. However, he can only work with what he's given. He's not the hand-holding type like I am.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I have given a poker stove range in my OP.

I'm under the assumption this is v his raising range, not versus his continuing range(probable to be a 4b shove) range.

Also he probably doesn't have 12combos of 65o if any at all. Just thought I'd point that out. You can probably drop some J8o/J7o/T9o/87o also.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I'm under the assumption this is v his raising range, not versus his continuing range(probable to be a 4b shove) range.

Also he probably doesn't have 12combos of 65o if any at all. Just thought I'd point that out. You can probably drop some J8o/J7o/T9o/87o also.

You're right with your assumption, when I have more time I will post up a continuing range for villain if I 3bet.

I only included 65o because he was 30/15, you're probably right that he doesn't c/r this wet a board with the low end of an OESD.

Interested to hear why you don't think this villain would defend his BB with J8o/J7o/T9o/87o as well, he had defended every BB so far, albeit only a small sample. Or are you assuming he may lead out with these type hands on this flop?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I just want to point out that Icanhastreebet (aka yaawn) is an excellent player (significantly better than myself) and is very passionate about poker.

Graphs for proof, nah just kiddin'. I'v always been under the impression you were a powerhouse at poker though, i remember searching you up back in the PTR days and was very impressed with what i saw.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

you're probably right that he doesn't c/r this wet a board with the low end of an OESD.

Why not?

Originally Posted by supa

Why not?

Because there is a FD, if he hits a 9 it might not be any good and there are better straight draws ( made straights as well ).

He may only have 3 clean outs.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Because there is a FD, if he hits a 9 it might not be any good and there are better straight draws ( made straights as well ).

He may only have 3 clean outs.

Why do you think he actually knows that?

I didn't. But Icanhastreebet made me re-think it.

Now you're making my head hurt.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I didn't. But Icanhastreebet made me re-think it.

Now you're making my head hurt.

Sorry I made you have to think for yourself.

Originally Posted by supa

Sorry I made you have to think for yourself.

I was thinking for myself. I included 65o the first time I assigned a range to villain. After Icanhastreebet commented, I had another look at it and decided he was probably right, I then gave my reasoning when you questioned it.

Originally Posted by supa

Sorry I made you have to think for yourself.

Excellent work, you should start coaching.

How can you include Js hands in villains range? Ah guess you ment other suited broadways there sorry lol

With treebet you get out what you put in. He has been massively +ev for my game right from the old IRC days to right fucking now.

Jus' sayin'

If I ever start playing again, I swear I'm going to get the IRC train back going.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

...I put him on 77+, AsKs, AJs, KJs, QJs, JTs, J8s-J7s, T9s, 87s, 65s, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo, J8o-J7o, T9o, 87o, 65o.

I am unsure whether he 3bets big hands pre as I only have a small sample size so I have included JJ+ & AKs...

just out of interest, what's your process for putting Villains on a range (in general, not just this hand)?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

just out of interest, what's your process for putting Villains on a range (in general, not just this hand)?

I don't really know, I haven't thought about that a lot actually. I just use villain's VPIP/PFR to decide what they could possibly have. Then use their actions to narrow their range down a bit further and decide what makes sense and what doesn't.

have u tried Flopzilla?

I like the level of thinking that goes on in the BC nowadays, credit to Spoon for getting people to put more effort in breaking down hands.

I'd call and jam over a turn bet, while we might still stack up just fine against his flop 4bet range, we're killing his spew-range, so let's let him do something stupid on the turn and get himself committed. Not necessarily worried about letting a freebie roll off here. It's not like we're pushing some massive EV edge when getting it in on the flop, but we could be by letting him screw up on the turn.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

have u tried Flopzilla?

I have not. Will have a look at it.

i really don't mind what we do here. we have heaps of equity and position to just call. that option has the added benefit of letting him bet once more with any bluffs he has. on the other side of that coin, i'd guess (no maths though, just guesses) that we'd do well enough versus a range of straights, sets, 2pairs, and a few NFD's to profitably 3b/call it off given the money in the pot. that option has the benefit of letting us realise all of our equity all of the time. not sure what's best.

3-betting is fine.

I don't get these stove ranges. AKss is the only nut FD we put villain on? The guy has shown that he's willing to call in the blind so I'd give him ... well pretty much all combos of Axss.

When you flop gin like this it's pretty difficult to mess up this hand. My major consideration here is how much I think villain is bluffing and likely to keep bluffing.

If I have reads that villain is the type to c/r light and keep running a bluff when a spade hits, then I'm more likely to call to induce his bluffs.

If I'm readless then call down or 3b/get it in, it really doesn't matter.